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Are you interested in nuclear power for clean energy?

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Our summary today works with the articles titled What is nuclear energy, What about the waste, and Safety, security and safeguards from 2024, fact sheets produced by Nuclear for Australia.

This is a great preparation to our next interview with Andrew Vass in episode 314 talking about the misconceptions of nuclear energy and its finances.

Since we are investigating the future of cities, I thought it would be interesting to see whether nuclear power can be a foundation for a clean energy future. These reports aim to dispel misconceptions about nuclear energy to address energy and climate challenges.

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Welcome to today’s What is The Future For Cities podcast and its Research episode; my name is Fanni, and today we will introduce a research by summarising it. The episode really is just a short summary of the original investigation, and, in case it is interesting enough, I would encourage everyone to check out the whole documentation. This conversation was produced and generated with Notebook LM as two hosts dissecting the whole research.

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Speaker 1: We’ve got three fact sheets here from Nuclear for Australia.

Speaker 2: What is nuclear energy?

Speaker 1: What about the waste?

Speaker 2: And safety, security, and safe yards?

Speaker 1: Which, I mean, pretty much covers all the bases, right?

Speaker 2: The big questions, for sure.

Speaker 1: And you know what? I think we’re going to uncover some pretty surprising stuff along the way.

Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Lots of misconceptions out there.

Speaker 1: Like, did you know that all the used nuclear fuel ever produced could actually fit inside the MCG?

Speaker 2: The Melbourne Cricket Ground.

Speaker 1: That’s what the fact sheet says. Kind of put things in perspective, huh?

Speaker 2: It does, doesn’t it? It really highlights how the amount of waste is much smaller than people tend to imagine, especially compared to the energy it produces.

Speaker 1: Absolutely. Okay, so let’s start with the basics. What is nuclear energy sheet breaks it down into two main processes? Fission and fusion. Can you give us the like ELI5 version of what those are?

Speaker 2: Sure. Fission, which is what we use in current nuclear power plants, is essentially splitting an atom, usually uranium. And that releases a huge amount of energy.

Speaker 1: So like breaking a bond and all that stored energy comes bursting out.

Speaker 2: Exactly, like breaking a really, really strong bond.

Speaker 1: Okay, and fusion. That’s what powers the sun, right?

Speaker 2: That’s right. Fusion is when you combine atoms like hydrogen into helium, and that releases even more energy than fission. It’s kind of the holy grail of energy production, but harnessing it here on Earth.

Speaker 1: Not quite ready to bottle the sun just yet.

Speaker 2: Not yet,

Speaker 1: no. So for now, it’s all about fission. But the fact sheet goes beyond just electricity generation. It talks about all sorts of other applications of nuclear tech in medicine, space exploration, all sorts of stuff.

Speaker 2: It really is incredibly versatile.

Speaker 1: What applications jumped out at you?

Speaker 2: I think nuclear medicine is particularly fascinating. The way it’s being used in cancer treatment and diagnostic imaging is just incredible. Really life changing stuff.

Speaker 1: Yeah, that’s amazing. I mean, to think the same technology that can power a city can also help save lives in a hospital. Let’s get back to the power plants. How does a nuclear power plant actually go from, like, a tiny bit of uranium to all that electricity?

Speaker 2: Okay, so there are two main parts. The reactor, where the fission process happens, and then the power plant itself, which is where that heat from fission is converted into electricity.

Speaker 1: So the reactor is where the action is, basically.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 1: And speaking of reactors, the fact sheet mentions different types, like PWRs and BWRs. What’s the difference between those? Like, is one better than the other?

Speaker 2: Well, PWRs are pressurized water reactors, and BWRs are boiling water reactors. They both use water to cool the reactor and create steam to spin those turbines that generate electricity.

Speaker 1: So both using water, but in different ways. So I’m guessing there are pros and cons to each?

Speaker 2: Right. PWRs are generally seen as more stable. They’ve got a longer history. While BWRs can be more efficient, but they can be a bit more complex. It really comes down to the specific needs of the plant and what you’re trying to achieve. Got it.

Speaker 1: And then there’s also these advanced reactors like the TerraPower Natrium Reactor. They sound pretty futuristic. What makes them so different?

Speaker 2: These advanced reactors are designed to be even safer and even more efficient than the traditional ones.

Speaker 1: So even better than what we’ve got now.

Speaker 2: The natrium reactor, for example, uses liquid sodium to cool things down, and it’s got this really cool molten salt energy storage system.

Speaker 1: Molten salt. Okay, now that sounds intense.

Speaker 2: It is, but it’s also super innovative. That molten salt system lets the reactor adjust its output to match demand, so it can work really well with the variable output from things like solar and wind.

Speaker 1: That’s pretty slick. So, hypothetically, if Australia were to actually build a nuclear power plant, a big if they’re, which type do you think would make the most sense, given our giant landmass and all that?

Speaker 2: A large PWR could be a good fit. It can provide a lot of power consistently. But then, there’s also these SMRs, those small modular reactors, they’re more flexible, you could put them in more specific locations.

Speaker 1: So, many factors to consider. We got to think about more than just the tech, right? There’s the economics, the environmental impacts, and of course, public opinion. We can’t ignore that.

Speaker 2: Absolutely. It’s a lot to unpack. Maybe we should start with that elephant in the room. Nuclear waste.

Speaker 1: What about the waste fact sheet?

Seems ready to bust some myths. So when people hear nuclear waste, I think most people probably picture like glowing green goo. Or barrels leaking, you know, something out of a movie.

Speaker 2: Right, it’s definitely got that image problem. But

Speaker 1: this fact sheet breaks it down. There’s low level, intermediate level, and then like the one everyone freaks out about, high level waste. Or used fuel, as they call it.

Speaker 2: And that’s the thing, there’s actually a surprisingly small amount of high level waste produced.

Speaker 1: Yeah. The fact sheet says all the used fuel ever produced, globally, could fit in the MCG.

Speaker 2: The whole world’s.

Speaker 1: The whole world’s. Inside the Melbourne Cricket Ground. Kind of hard to wrap your head around.

Speaker 2: It is, but it really drives home the point that this isn’t some unmanageable mountain of waste. And especially when you think about the energy it provides, and we have safe ways to deal with it.

Speaker 1: Okay, so what do we actually do with it? Where does it go?

Speaker 2: Well, first off, it’s stored in pools of water, which cools it down and helps reduce radiation levels. And after a few years, it can be moved into these things called dry casks.

Speaker 1: Dry casks? Like, what are those?

Speaker 2: They’re super strong containers designed for long term storage.

Speaker 1: So they just sit in those forever?

Speaker 2: Well, one option is to put them in deep geological repositories. They’re basically these purpose built underground facilities designed to isolate the waste for thousands of years.

Speaker 1: Underground. Is that even possible, like, geographically?

Speaker 2: Actually, Australia’s got a lot of areas that would be suitable. Plus, we already safely manage radioactive minerals at Anastio, so we do have the know how.

Speaker 1: But these repositories, they sound pricey.

Speaker 2: It is a big investment, yeah. But you’ve got to balance that against the benefits, right? Clean energy, reliable power. Plus, we shouldn’t forget about recycling.

Speaker 1: Wait, we can recycle nuclear waste?

Speaker 2: Fused fuel, yeah. There’s still a lot of energy potential left in it. So we can reprocess it. Get even more use out of it, and that reduces the volume of waste even further.

Speaker 1: Wow, didn’t know that. So it’s not just a one and done kind of deal.

Speaker 2: Nope. Lots of possibilities.

Speaker 1: But even if we solve the waste issue, there’s still, you know, that big, scary question. What about accidents, meltdowns?

Speaker 2: Right. I mean, everyone remembers Chernobyl, Fukushima. Those images are hard to forget.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 2: But this safety, security, and safeguard sheet really dives into that. And it’s important to remember, those disasters happened because of specific design flaws and operational problems that just don’t exist in modern plants.

Speaker 1: So are you saying those kinds of disasters couldn’t happen again?

Speaker 2: The chance of a major accident at a modern plant is incredibly low. The industry has learned from those past mistakes. The safety standards are super rigorous. There are layers upon layers of backup systems. And the whole culture is focused on constant improvement.

Speaker 1: They’re not messing around, huh?

Speaker 2: Nope, not at all.

Speaker 1: The sheet talks about these passive safety systems. What exactly are those?

Speaker 2: They’re basically designed to automatically shut down the reactor if there’s an emergency, even without human intervention or needing external power.

Speaker 1: So it’s like hands free safety.

Speaker 2: In a way, yeah. They use things like gravity and convection to cool the reactor down, and that prevents a meltdown.

Speaker 1: So even worst case scenario, those systems kick in and prevent a disaster.

Speaker 2: That’s the idea, yeah. And it’s not just theory. The fact sheet actually says it’s statistically safer to work at a nuclear power plant than at a fast food restaurant.

Speaker 1: Seriously, fast food is that dangerous?

Speaker 2: Well, the point is, nuclear plants take safety incredibly seriously.

Speaker 1: Fair enough. But okay, what about like terrorism, sabotage? Those have got to be huge concerns, right?

Speaker 2: They are, and the industry knows that. Security is paramount. I mean, nuclear plants are some of the most heavily guarded places in the world. There are layers of barriers, surveillance systems, tons of security personnel.

Speaker 1: The fact sheet says they’re even designed to withstand an airplane crashing into them. Is that really necessary?

Speaker 2: It sounds extreme, I know, but after 9 11, everything changed. They re evaluated everything, and that includes protecting against even the most unthinkable events.

Speaker 1: Wow. So it’s not just about preventing accidents, it’s about protecting them from attack, too. But what about, like, nuclear material falling into the wrong hands? Couldn’t that be used to make weapons?

Speaker 2: That’s where safeguards

Speaker 1: come in.

Speaker 2: This fact sheet explains how the International Atomic Energy Agency, the IAEA, Keeps track of nuclear material all over the world.

Speaker 1: So it’s like a global watchdog, making sure no one’s up to no good.

Speaker 2: Exactly. And Australia is already part of all the relevant treaties. We have a strong commitment to non proliferation. Adding nuclear power wouldn’t change that.

Speaker 1: Plus, the FACC points out that making a weapon requires a totally different process than what’s used in power plants and higher levels of enrichment, like apples and oranges.

Speaker 2: Right. It’s super important to understand that distinction. The tech is different. The materials are different. And there are these strict safeguards in place to make sure nothing gets diverted.

Speaker 1: So, hypothetically, if Australia did go nuclear, we’ve already got a framework for all this security stuff. But then there’s the big question. Money. Building a nuke plant, that’s gotta be expensive, right?

Speaker 2: There’s definitely a significant upfront cost, yeah. But you have to look at the long game. Nuclear power could create a lot of jobs, lead to new technologies, and make us less reliant on fossil fuels. All that could boost the economy and maybe even lower electricity prices in the long run.

Speaker 1: This economics and power bill sheet suggests it might be more competitive than people think, especially with renewable costs going down.

Speaker 2: It’s about finding that sweet spot, the right mix. Nuclear alongside renewables, storage tech, maybe even some fossil fuels with carbon capture. Every source has its pluses and minuses. Gotta figure out what works best for Australia.

Speaker 1: Right, it’s complicated, but before we go too far down that rabbit hole, let’s zoom out for a second. The What is Nuclear Energy sheet mentions that 32 countries already have nuclear power, and more are thinking about it. Why are so many countries jumping on the nuclear bandwagon now?

Speaker 2: Well, it’s a few things really. The demand for electricity is growing everywhere. Climate change is a huge worry. And countries want energy security, so they’re looking at all their options, and nuclear is starting to look pretty good. It’s high output, low emissions, and a proven track record.

Speaker 1: So it’s kind of having a comeback moment, huh?

Speaker 2: Yeah, you could say that. But what about Australia specifically? I mean, we’ve got that ban in place, and public opinion is, well, mixed, to say the least.

Speaker 1: It’s a tricky situation. We’ve got tons of uranium, but we can’t use it for power. What do you make of all that? Yeah, it’s kind of ironic, right? Biggest uranium reserves in the world, but we’re not allowed to use them for power.

Speaker 2: It is a bit of a head scratcher. It’s a really complicated issue. Our history, politics, how people see nuclear technology, it all plays a part.

Speaker 1: But things might be changing, right? This What is Nuclear Energy sheet talks about the AUKUS deal.

Speaker 2: Ah, yes. The submarines. That is significant. The government’s committing to nuclear powered subs.

Speaker 1: That’s got to shift the conversation a bit, doesn’t it?

Speaker 2: It does. It means they’re more open to nuclear technology. Even if it’s for military use, it opens the door. Plus, think about all the new industries, the jobs. We’ll need people who can build and maintain those subs. That could be the start of a whole nuclear sector in Australia.

Speaker 1: So the OQS deal could be a catalyst, even if it wasn’t meant to be about energy, but let’s talk about those economics.

Speaker 2: Yeah, the money. These fact sheets, they really lay it out. Jobs, innovation, growth. I mean, a strong nuclear industry could make Australia a leader in clean energy. We could even export the tech.

Speaker 1: And we wouldn’t be so dependent on fossil fuels, right?

Speaker 2: Exactly. Which is good for the economy and for the planet. And speaking of the planet, this climate and environment sheet makes a pretty strong case for nuclear in the fight against climate change.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it’s one of the few energy sources that can provide that baseload power, keeps the lights on all the time, and no greenhouse gases.

Speaker 2: Exactly. That’s what makes it so valuable. I mean, renewables are important, solar, wind, but they’re not always there. You need something to back them up. Or massive storage, which we’re still figuring out. Nuclear can do that. Keeps things stable.

Speaker 1: Look at the facts, weigh the pros and cons. Have a real conversation about it.

Speaker 2: These fact sheets, they’re a good starting point. They give you a balanced view.

Speaker 1: So, what do you think? After hearing all this, does nuclear energy have a place in the future? It’s a question worth pondering.

Speaker 2: Absolutely. Keep learning, keep talking about it. These energy choices we make, they affect everyone. For generations.

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